Love and Responsibility

Days gone by are remembered as good or bad according to our desire. Although we are not encouraging anyone to post texts in this forum, if anyone feels a need to discuss things related to their former times in a spiritual movement or to ventilate their feelings, this is the place to do it. Please maintain proper decorum and do not flame others or other organizations. Any comments or statements herein are the opinions of the poster's alone and have no connection to harimedia.net or its administrators.
Janus
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Re: ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

Post by Janus »

Auttareya wrote:Maybe it is truth, that I am crazy man, because maybe I have not right to know on this side of life the answers on my questions repeatedly asked to person, whom I was loving by my whole heart and in whom as representation of Same God, I was unlimitedly trusting through a dozen or so years heavy devotional service of sankirtan on the streets of the cities of the world.

Maybe it is truth, that all those years of completely dedication for desires of my spiritual master and my sacrifices much more beyond the possibility both my psyche and my diseased body are useless, since my spiritual master reversed to me and to ideas, by which he was burning everyday my longing for Krsna heart.

So, maybe I have right to be crazy and with dignity to left this space of my life in order to find the answers on the other side of existence, where there are not more illusions, where my motivation would be properly understood, where I would not be offended in my sincerity nor judged for manipulations and bad intentions and where I would be ultimately cured from naivety!
Your desires for justice is a passionate responce to your perception of injustice. Justice is in the mode of goodness. Never the less this is a material desire. How essential is it to your path to perfection?
Self realization begins at home
kamalamala
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love and responsibility

Post by kamalamala »

If you realy want to comunicate with other person you at least have to respect him.
You are speaking about love to Hari but in the same time you are calling in such unrespectfull way specialy concocted by the GBC cheaters name Harikes.
How you can call one in the name that he doesnt want to be called.

Would you like if i call you something like stupid one?

If you are sinsere person then please stop to offend others.


You have full possibility to hear again and again Haris messeges in the
downloads sections of this web.
Auttareya

Re: love and responsibility

Post by Auttareya »

kamalamala wrote: If you realy want to comunicate with other person you at least have to respect him.
I am respecting Harikeś but in another mood than you can understand now. This is mood of great grief and bitterness. As spiritual master he left me and he bereaved me without a word of explanation. He wrote some letters of explanation to GBC, but it is not enough for me. I don’t like to be treated as in warehouse in impersonal manner especially that in ISKCON I wholly dedicated my life to Harikeś desire to satisfy Śrila Prabhupada. For such idea I even was able to shoot down my heath on many, many years of sankirtan to this degree, that now I am almost as invalid man. Re your experiences from prison, I was in it too. It happened on the border of Vietnam where I was trying to smuggle Śrila Prabhupada books from Singapura through Malesia, Thainland and Laos.

Re our discussion, lately Harikeś wrote me in our correspondence:
hari wrote:I am not representing Prabhupada. I am not connecting anyone to him. I am not representing the parampara.
[Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:11 pm, Re: Krishna - the Centrum of our relationship]

This my personal tragedy.
Therefore I do not feel this same kind of love to him as I felt when we were both in Iskcon in disciple and spiritual master relation although it was practically only vani. Now my mood is strongly mixed with feelings of grief. Sometimes it is smaller or sometimes it is deeper and in this last case I am using more harsh words and even I became malignant.
I see the greatness of my spiritual master only in shade of his spiritual master Śrila Prabhupada.
For me conception of parampara is very important. My realizations are connected with conception of system parampara.
My personal tragedy means that Harikes (as he said) is no more link for me with succession of Gaudiya Madhva Brahma sampradaya. He break down his connection with this sampradaya and by this he craked me off too. He even not apologiesed me and other his disciples for it.
Maybe he think that everythink is OK, but it is not OK.
kamalamala wrote: You are speaking about love to Hari but in the same time you are calling in such unrespectfull way specialy concocted by the GBC cheaters name Harikes.
How you can call one in the name that he doesnt want to be called.

Would you like if i call you something like stupid one?

If you are sinsere person then please stop to offend others.


In my private correspondence with Harikeś, he wrote me that Brahma Tirtha once said:
"It is natural to sometimes disagree with your father."

As you see I am in this mood now.
Why I am calling him Harikeś? Because I do not like this name Hari for him. I do not feel to call him by his karmi name, I do not feel to call him Śri Visnupada, I do not feel to call him my guru and I even do not like to call him Harikeś.
But Harikeś is name given him by Śrila Prabhupada and from my perspective it is little more suitable for him because it is showing his previous being disciple of Śrila Prabhupada and being my previous spiritual master too. The same logic you can find in names of Krsna. His names are corresponding to His acts. Wonderful acts.
But acts of Harikes are not wonderful from point of view of our previous broken relation as spiritual master and disciple but still the rule is the same.
kamalamala wrote: You have full possibility to hear again and again Haris messeges in the
downloads sections of this web.
Sometimes I am hearing. Some of them are amazing.
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harsi
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Re: ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

Post by harsi »

Janus wrote: Your desires for justice is a passionate responce to your perception of injustice. Justice is in the mode of goodness.
I would agree to this. I find also interesting what I fount recently regarding this, your name, dear Janus.
"Janus, as the first king of Latium brought the people a time of peace and welfare; The Golden Age."- "In Roman mythology, an era at the beginning of the world when Saturn ruled Latium. It was a period of perfect harmony and prosperity. War and battle were unknown as were crime and injustice. Laws were redundant. The earth itself brought forth fruits and even among animals there was peace"- "Janus introduced money, cultivation of the fields and the laws.
The month of January (the eleventh Roman month) is named after him"
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/j/janus.html?esc

Related to Janus is also the Roman goddes Cardea. Her other name was Carna (carnal is a derigative) a nymph who lived at the site where in later times the city of Rome would be built. The god Janus fell in love with her and gave her power over door-handles. She obtained the office from him in exchange for her personal favors. Ovid says of Cardea, apparently quoting a religious formulation, "Her power is to open what is shut; to shut what is open."
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology ... icles.html
Open up your mind and heart to new experiences of consciousness.
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harsi
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Re: love and responsibility

Post by harsi »

Auttareya wrote: For such idea I even was able to shoot down my heath on many, many years of sankirtan to this degree, that now I am almost as invalid man. Re your experiences from prison, I was in it too. It happened on the border of Vietnam where I was trying to smuggle Śrila Prabhupada books from Singapur through Malaysia, Thailand and Laos.


Welcome in our "club" of former prisoners dear Auttareya, can I just say to it. I know very well what you went trough there. In 1987 I went due to my carelesness, if it can be said like that, through a similar experience myself in the former German Democratic Republic. There were also books involved on my way to West Berlin. At that time one had to pass through the comunistic GDR. That their security police were not so much devoted to God one can imagine I guess. But it was a kind of unic experience for me this period of my life there, among murderers and other "real" criminals and only made me more strong in my determination to understand my real nature, and serve thus the cause of the Lord. It was somehow funny I was judged and received my sentence "for what I did there" so called, from a female judge, on the day of Nrsimha Caturdasi. Maybe that helped also somehow, that I didn´t had to stay there in prison, so long as the advocate which was put by the state, informed me before, if I would not give him the amount of money he wanted. And I didn´t gave it to him, I was so stubborn as I am also now sometimes, and also had my faith in Krsna, that he will help me anyway to come out of this situation somehow in the future. And He did, would I say. What until than I didn´t thought that I would ever do, since there would not be any spiritual vallue in it, at least I thought before like that. I studet what the Holy Bible had to say in spiritual matters, since that was the only available spiritual book there in their library. And I must say this book has many remnants of real spiritual knowledge in it still. Thats just to inform you that somehow I feel myself also near to you, it seems that we have somehow the same nature and made somehow also the same experiences in our life. Maybe I can visit you once there in Poland, I guess we would have a lot of things to discuss, or? Germany is not so far by car would I say. You know my e-mail address here. Feel free to write me a message.
Open up your mind and heart to new experiences of consciousness.
Janus
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Re: ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

Post by Janus »

harsi wrote:
Janus wrote: Your desires for justice is a passionate responce to your perception of injustice. Justice is in the mode of goodness.
I would agree to this. I find also interesting what I fount recently regarding this, your name, dear Janus.
"Janus, as the first king of Latium brought the people a time of peace and welfare; The Golden Age."- "In Roman mythology, an era at the beginning of the world when Saturn ruled Latium. It was a period of perfect harmony and prosperity. War and battle were unknown as were crime and injustice. Laws were redundant. The earth itself brought forth fruits and even among animals there was peace"- "Janus introduced money, cultivation of the fields and the laws.
The month of January (the eleventh Roman month) is named after him"
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/j/janus.html?esc

Related to Janus is also the Roman goddes Cardea. Her other name was Carna (carnal is a derigative) a nymph who lived at the site where in later times the city of Rome would be built. The god Janus fell in love with her and gave her power over door-handles. She obtained the office from him in exchange for her personal favors. Ovid says of Cardea, apparently quoting a religious formulation, "Her power is to open what is shut; to shut what is open."
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology ... icles.html
"Now has the last great age begun,
by Cumae's seer foretold;
new born the ighty cycles run
their course, and quit the old.
Now too, the Virgin reappears,
and Saturn re-controls the spheres.
Now is a new race on the way
from heaven; do thou befriend
the Infant, all but born, whose day
the iron brood shall end
and with the golden fill the earth."
Virgil, the Fourth Ecologue

Prediction of Lord Caitanya's advent and an instruction that the youngest and most idealistic recalled at a critical moment prevailing over the more cautious and protective. The way was opened.
Self realization begins at home
Janus
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Post by Janus »

Auttereya if Hari hadn’t admitted to being a conditioned soul would you still be busting your ass serving the both of your delusions? Would you be happy still under the principle that ignorance is bliss? You should be happy that he freed you, you could have died in his service, and what then?

What if Hari turns around and goes back into ISKCON, back to being as "Good as God?", you think that that option is closed to him? It isn’t. You cannot downplay the marketability of any of the 11, just like who would have expected Paul who never even met Jesus, and fell completely afoul of the disciples who did, to be able to create a new religion on the strength of Jesus’s name.

Indeed if Kirtananada was the last of the 11 alive don’t you think that ISKCON might not be kissing his ass if they thought that it would help them?

Hari could probably go back to being Good as God anytime that he wanted to and blame this whole instance upon just his feeling that he was unworthy. Wouldn’t such a display of humility, his thinking that he wasn’t capable of being anyone’s guru, just the proof that marks him as a pure devotee? It certainly could be interpreted that way, would that make you happy? It might, but then again this time you might have doubts.

Ignorance is bliss prabhu, might what you are lamenting be more the loss of that comforting sense of certitude that even blind faith can supply more than the loss of 12 years and your present physical condition? I believe that it is and if it is then no apology of Hari’s would satisfy you.

I did not miss the word "malignant" that you used to describe what you have become. You do not want an apology, you want it back the way it was, or else. But since deep down you realize that it never can be that way again you want revenge. The thirst for revenge is a terrible lust one that is not satisfied so easily as you imagine.

Better to bag it, tag it and move on.

Put it in perspective.

If you don’t have a link to Srila Prabhupada because you were initiated by one of the 11 then no one else does who was initiated by any of them.

This would be true if Srila Prabhupada hadn’t empowered them to initiate on his behalf, but he did, so you are not the disciple of a conditioned soul, you are an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada.
Self realization begins at home
Auttareya

Post by Auttareya »

Dear Janus, thanks for your post and advices.

In beginning of my answers to you, I would like to ask you to write to me in more simple English, because I have some problems with understanding your text to the degree, I would like to do.
Janus wrote:Auttereya if Hari hadn’t admitted to being a conditioned soul would you still be busting your ass serving the both of your delusions? Would you be happy still under the principle that ignorance is bliss? You should be happy that he freed you, you could have died in his service, and what then?
Your conclusions concerning Harikeś to being a conditioned soul are not unequivocally target.
Maybe he is condition soul, maybe he is not. Only he knows.
From my side I am sure for 100% that he is not only a very spiritually elevated person but also he is very dear to Śrila Prabhupada and Krsna, because almost from begging of my devotional service under his guidance I had some deep realizations in which he has taken a very important role. Those revelations were giving me so many strengths in my devotional service, that by all those years of my struggles in Iskcon I could tolerate things, which in another case I would not be able to tolerate in any conditions.
I have tolerated not only many injustices directed to us, simple devotees by impersonal organization but especially my own limitations in my character, which were continuous source of so many problems to me and to others devotees too. Maybe the cause of it was that I was before an atheist who joined to Śrila Prabhupada movement. I was so much struggling with myself not only in begging of my devotional service, that I was forced to be a very introspective person, who was able to perceptively study himself and thanks to it I was, and I am still able to repair my own errors. In present time I am also able to do it, but first I need to know some answers on my questions directed to my previous spiritual master, which from my perspective of self realization are very, very important to me.

I think that it would be better to stop your speculations about my conclusions in case when I will got the answers from Harikeś (if it would be happen, who knows?) whether they would be such or another because you don’t understand me properly.
Janus wrote:What if Hari turns around and goes back into ISKCON, back to being as "Good as God?", you think that that option is closed to him? It isn’t. You cannot downplay the marketability of any of the 11, just like who would have expected Paul who never even met Jesus, and fell completely afoul of the disciples who did, to be able to create a new religion on the strength of Jesus’s name.

Indeed if Kirtananada was the last of the 11 alive don’t you think that ISKCON might not be kissing his ass if they thought that it would help them?

Hari could probably go back to being Good as God anytime that he wanted to and blame this whole instance upon just his feeling that he was unworthy. Wouldn’t such a display of humility, his thinking that he wasn’t capable of being anyone’s guru, just the proof that marks him as a pure devotee? It certainly could be interpreted that way, would that make you happy? It might, but then again this time you might have doubts.
I hope, that you understand that the organization of Isckon was made by Śrila Prabhupada to help devotees in their devotional service.
There was no other cause to create such organization.
The true mission of Srila Prabhupada was to bring to us the spiritual knowledge and to teach us how to apply it in our lives. And He did it perfectly. He changed our hearts, he changed our taste and he changed our desires. We all are deeply interested in self realization. He sown in our hearts the seeds of devotional service and He infected us by His love to Krsna to such degree that now we are completely other persons. Isn’t?
From this perspective I can not find any of imperfections in His behavior in rendering His mission.
But the organization to help devotees failed. Although it was created to help devotees, now it is opposite.
I can call it the overgrowth of form above the essence.

Why I am writing about it?
I am writing about it in order to show you that despite of all this huge problems given to us by impersonal organization based on most personal philosophy, the spiritual connection of disciple and spiritual master is still valid because it is completely independent from external influences due to being spiritual in it same nature.
Re my person, although I am so fool to use in my bitterness so harsh words to Harikeś, I can not to stop to think about him deeply in my heart in another way that he is my spiritual master, although he left me alone in most difficult period of time of my life.
And re kind of humility and sincerity, which I would like to see in behavior of Harikeś, you are also wrong.
I will not be explaining it to you, because you are enough wise man to understand it properly, but for it you need to change little, not to much, your perspective of view.
Janus wrote:Ignorance is bliss prabhu, might what you are lamenting be more the loss of that comforting sense of certitude that even blind faith can supply more than the loss of 12 years and your present physical condition? I believe that it is and if it is then no apology of Hari’s would satisfy you.

I did not miss the word "malignant" that you used to describe what you have become. You do not want an apology, you want it back the way it was, or else. But since deep down you realize that it never can be that way again you want revenge. The thirst for revenge is a terrible lust one that is not satisfied so easily as you imagine.
Yes, you are perfectly right. If Harikeś don’t want to apologies me or others his former disciples for impersonal way of rejecting us, let him be person whom Śrila Prabhupada trusted his faith and Krsna blessed by His mercy. It not requires any kind of external arrangements as organizations but it requires the awareness of inner sense of responsibility, sincerity and truly authentic love. I mean love by which he can understand even me.
Janus wrote:If you don’t have a link to Srila Prabhupada because you were initiated by one of the 11 then no one else does who was initiated by any of them.
This would be true if Srila Prabhupada hadn’t empowered them to initiate on his behalf, but he did, so you are not the disciple of a conditioned soul, you are an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada.
Yes, it is truth. I am disciple of Srila Prabhupada, I feel it.
But simultaneously I am under care of His disciple as Śrila Prabhupada desired, no matter what happened in his and my life.

That is my understanding.
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Gaura
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Post by Gaura »

To Auttareya.
Hari wrote:You waste my time and perhaps the time of others. I have spent much time answering you. You do not accept my answers. Fine. I do not have to waste more time with you for I do not wish to as it has no purpose. You are fixated on some point and cannot move forward in your life. I am sorry for that but I am not the one to help you. Neither will I agree to your demands nor be manipulated by you...

Therefore there is no use of your continually harping on these points over again. Please respect my desire to not discuss this further with you.
:013

It’s becoming boring. Do you want that everyone will cry? I’m already crying. :006
GPandit
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time to move on

Post by GPandit »

Auttareya,

"Forget the past that sleeps and ne'er the future dream at all...."

According to the great saint Thakur Bhaktivinode, one should live in the present moment. If you are willing to move forward, it seems there are some people on this board who would be willing to help you. You are pissed off at Hari, you can't hear what he is saying; therefore he can't help you. I'm reading the words and advice of others on this thread, there are some good people here.

Good luck in your present of moving forward.
What we do in life, echoes in Eternity
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harsi
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Post by harsi »

Janus wrote: Put it in perspective.

If you don’t have a link to Srila Prabhupada because you were initiated by one of the 11 then no one else does who was initiated by any of them.
This would be true if Srila Prabhupada hadn’t empowered them to initiate on his behalf, but he did, so you are not the disciple of a conditioned soul, you are an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada.
However it may be, he was "introduced into the understanding" that now it may depend more or less on him, how he will make some progress on the spiritual path he was "initiated in", would I say. I personaly would consider myself rather a disciple of this spiritual path, and whoever may can help me to make some progress in it is more tha welcome to me. Like you said guru is one.
Open up your mind and heart to new experiences of consciousness.
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Post by harsi »

Auttareya wrote: Re my person, although I am so fool to use in my bitterness so harsh words to Harikeś, I can not to stop to think about him deeply in my heart in another way that he is my spiritual master, although he left me alone in most difficult period of time of my life.
I would say it is not so much indicated to consider the person which initiated one on our spiritual path as our father. That would I think exceed somehow the posibilities of that person. This relationships are to be found in the society one may be in, would I say.

But I know the way ISKCON was designed by its founder gave the impresion to its members that that may have to be otherwise.
It was a great fault, not only the understanding which its members developed being in that society, but also a mistake or fault of the one who designed it in the way it was and still is, I guess. But how does Krsna says in the Bhagavad gita " Declare it boldly that my devotee is never perishing, even if he may have made some mistakes. Which are more or less evident now in this regard, you are the best example for this, would I say. But failures are there to be corected and move on in a better way, and more better way... and so on. Why not, reaching the goal of our spiritual endeavers is what should count, or?
Open up your mind and heart to new experiences of consciousness.
Auttareya

Spiritual fatherhood

Post by Auttareya »

harsi wrote:I would say it is not so much indicated to consider the person which initiated one on our spiritual path as our father. That would I think exceed somehow the posibilities of that person. This relationships are to be found in the society one may be in, would I say.
This subject matter is not easy and I was discussing it with Hari someday in our private correspondence.
I would like to tell you dear Harsi, that my understanding of this topic is not perfectly but still similar to understanding of Hari.
I hope that Hari would not be more angry (maybe it is no possible) for me that he is now, if I will quote one of our private letters concerning this topic in order to showing simultaneously his and my understanding.

********************************************************

From: Auttareya
To: Hari
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:08 am
Subject: Re: Krishna - the Centrum of our relationship

***
Auttareya wrote: What is your relation with Śrila Prabhupada in present time?
Hari wrote: I see him as my father. I love him as my father. I do not see him as my guru. I disagree with many of the external arrangements that were made for devotees which have caused much trouble to them. At present, I have chosen to do what I feel is best in all cases without having to refer to something he said or wanted to make my decision. This leaves me free to do something right rather than something 'authorized.'
So the problem is the relation is mixed with love yet disagreement with the structure and organization. Mainly they are external disagreements. Brahma Tirtha once said, "It is natural to sometimes disagree with your father."
Auttareya wrote: Sorry for my long silence and thank for your sincerity.
Your answer caused in my heart some kind of sufferings and I needed some time to accommodate it.
But I am thankful for that truth because the truth is much better than even most beautiful crams. (sorry for my poor English).
In this letter I will try to assume my attitude to your answers concerning your relation with Śrila Prabhupada.
Hari wrote: I see him as my father. I love him as my father. I do not see him as my guru.
Auttareya wrote: If you do not see Śrila Prabhupada as your guru it means that my desire (as grandson of Śrila Prabhupada) to see you as my guru is useless. The most important sequences of it is that our connection with sampradaya is broken. You can be fallen or not, I can be fallen or not, we can be in Iskcon or not, but if you are rejecting Śrila Prabhupada as your guru it means that you are not more connecting me (and my god brothers) to Him and via Him to our sampradaya. So, because of your choice, you are not more the link of chain of Gaudiya Madhva Brahma Sampradaya.
So more, I do not see and love you in category of my father because to be father it is not so cheap and for it somebody should deserve. On this world there are so many so called biological fathers and so many rejected by them orphans. To be a father in biological or spiritual sense without a responsibility is insane, simply cheap sentiments.
Hari wrote:I disagree with many of the external arrangements that were made for devotees which have caused much trouble to them.
Auttareya wrote: I also disagree with many external arrangements that were made for devotees which have caused much trouble to them. You even can not image in your most courageous dreams how many problems, sufferings and health devastations you caused by your fiery and fanatical lectures concerning a book distribution or for example a brahmacari standards. And also on your behalf some your disciples were acting (I hope in sincere mood) with another devotees almost as fascist.
Hari wrote:At present, I have chosen to do what I feel is best in all cases without having to refer to something he said or wanted to make my decision. This leaves me free to do something right rather than something 'authorized`
Auttareya wrote: I feel similarly but I am doubting that it is in opposite with same spirit of Śrila Prabhupada`s message. In that way from my point of view, it seem to me as a kind of self justifying.
Hari wrote: So the problem is the relation is mixed with love yet disagreement with the structure and organization. Mainly they are external disagreements. Brahma Tirtha once said, "It is natural to sometimes disagree with your father."
Auttareya wrote: I agree, I am not digesting such kind of manifestation of organization too. So more after my Iskcon bitter experiences, I feel in my heart disgust with any kind of organizations in which in name of most beautiful idea there is made so many sufferings for sincere followers. For me it is not healthy and in my opinion in case of Iskcon it is because of lack of our maturity.
But in opposite of such realizations I am deeply convinced in my heart on power of my realizations that this process of bhakti yoga is working and although I am fallen person I am still connected with our parampara.
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To play God...

Post by harsi »

I just know dear Auttareya that its not my position to play the role of God... Thats what I would like to say in regard to responsability and in regard to be "linked" so called to parampara read what I just wrote in "What was the point" and coment about it what your awareness and understanding in this matter is from the logical point of view and not from the "mechanical" one.
Open up your mind and heart to new experiences of consciousness.
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love and responsibility

Post by kamalamala »

For the person whos name is Atreya

It is complitiy useless to argue with you since you dont want to understand and just hanging on some realy old and artifitial concept
of so called guru.
It is anyway complitly uncultered to call one in a way if he doesnt like
Nobody is nobodyes slaveS nobody can force you to accept name nor Prabhupad nor anybody else,it seem that you are maybe hipocritical uncultered person,or you are realy need to be cured.You have complitlty slave mentality it is very nice for one who doesnt want to be responsible for wath he is doing or thinking.
If i dont like my name nobody can force me to use it.And no cultered man will be offended if i didnt accept the name he is giving to me.
You are living in such a concoted warld.
You are speaking so much about devotion to Prabhupad i am wandering
how many things he said you are doing i think not so many,you are Idelising Him itis your choice but you have no rights to blame others
who are not idelising Him and if you dont like to be with such people then the door is open.
Actualy in your present crasy condition after all the main input was done inderectly by Prabhupad by his movement,Sri Visnupad was just manifesting very corectly wath Prabhupad wanted and that is why you
must have courage to blame Prabhupad, if you want to blame others,but better blame yourself since in each time of period you had absolut
free choice to act in the way YOU like,you didnt use it it is your falt not otheres.All ideals, all goals,all instruments,strategy,tactics was made by Prabhupad Sri Visnupad was just good executer.
And by the way first of all he was lamenting so strongly after 1998
because of devotees lifes and all problems that ISCON was created for
the childresns and all cheatings which i believe until our days is going on in ISCON,then nobody else,second of all thanks God that he leaved ISCON and by his such a unbelivebale in that time step helped tousand of us.
You are sounding like a blind faith believer,is it possible for you to understand that ISCON taking people to NOWERE and if you understand it,just forget past and try to understand that real spirituality and religion
is different things.
All this empty wards about parampara and so on is only wards and nothing else.

Do you believe that anybody in ISCON is representing Parampara,
and wath is Parampara by the way.

Actualy Parampara in my understanding is if you can get the spiritual real
experiance from one who is in real [not appointed]contact with GOD,
then you are geting some spiritual energy from the right sours.
After all some very highly advenced souls doesnt need to have a "guru"
they are coming on this earth alwready in full contact with GOD like Jesus
was,isnt it possible.And the real fact of such a person is proved by his
extraordinary abilityes not by tons of books and nice speaches,and even not by revolutionary deeds.

I can declare openly that this ward Paramapara in the case of ISCON is realy used to make a sect, the group of narrow minded people who
not only doesnt realy understand "there" scriptures but is full of
pride themselfs and anger towards others like fanatic muslims.
By the way MUslims said that only Coran and nothing else and they are also very much Idelising there Guru who by the way had more then 15
wifes.Maybe it very appropriate religion for you :roll: :roll:

The soirituality is nor speculation it more like exersise and the way of living then the information.
Many people they dont know at all any scriptures but they are much
more spiritual they are more following for example the mane principal
of spiritual way of life then for example you, i mean AHIMSA,
ahimsa is the principle to not desturb anybody wath to speak about
spiritual person,to be realy cultured in action.

By offending Hari you will not gane anything exept more crasyness.

Is nt it very nice that you did in ISCON time if yes then why you are blaming others.

You are saying that you felt Hari as your Guru and now you lost Him,
but you know first of all if you want accept HIm as a guru wath is the problem do it,but it doesnt mean that now Hari is your slave and he
should act and speak as you want.
You must understand wath you need the person who are in real contact with GOg or wath?
Maybe one day you will see that Hari is such a person,if not then find the
other one whom you like i highly recomand some SWami,if one want to be cheated there are so many cheaters.
That is why Hari was saying in 1998 that he doesnt like when people
dealing with him not as he is as a person but apointed one.

You know Prabhupad also was the follower of Gandy and then he desagreed with him wath is the problem.Bhactivinod was desagreeing with his first Guru.And wath is the Guru in Vaishnava tradition it is just Siksa.I can say you that Prabhupad was desaagreing with many things that Bhaktisidhata was saying and even doing.
Have you ever thought why Prabhupad never encouraged to publish the warks of his guru?

By the way can you emagine most probably Prabhupad is not happy with his Iscon and maybe he is thanking Hari that he trying so hard to
help even such a fool as it seem you are.

By the way anyway please stop to adress Hari in unpleasant way,
if you continue like that then i will adress you as stupid fool, OK
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