Devas

[harsi]

You assume that "our faith" [that we must, of course, all share in the same manner as you understand it] is the Hare Krsna one. Either you have seriously misunderstood who I am or you are purposefully creating disturbances.

After careful consideration I would like to let you know, Hari, that I am not about to take your reproach, that our faith would be "the Hare Krsna one." With our faith, I rather meant the faith which each one of us has, you too, namely in a Supreme God. Now your response to this my faith really made me think. You either cannot stand the idea of a Supreme and all powerfull God, or your approach to this topic are in line with that of Neale Donald Walsch who revealed in an online course I watched and payed for, ones 400 dollars, that: "God lives in you as you". Now what that really means everyone kann imagine, or envision, by him or herself.

[Hari]

Well, I meant your faith, the one you push into these discussions! That faith is very similar to a Hare Krishna one! It is not mine. Does that mean I do not believe in a Supreme or All Powerful God named Krsna? I am not even sure why you would assume this, but that you consistently assume it tells me that you misunderstand me and what I have been saying. You have never heard me say that we are the Supreme. Yet, you have never heard me discuss that supreme as ONLY Krsna for I always express "my" conception of the "supreme" (Oh that word is so misused, misunderstood, and in fact, turned into a cliche) as Radha and Krsna. I have no interest in Mr Walsch other than an appreciation for most of the points made in his original books and I for one would never waste my money on his course. That you did says something about you too!

You are certainly free to think as you like, speak as you like and so on. Where we express ourselves and how we express ourselves is equally important as the freedom to express. With this freedom comes responsibility, etiquette, caring, and so on. I have observed that you lack this to some extent. I will continue to point this out to you till you get the point or you cease trying to drill your points into conversations where they are not appreciated.

Consistently you challenge the basic points that I have presented. This is a problem because I do not wish to go back to square one in these forums because few are interested in such repetition. My advice for a beginner is to listen to the lectures, do the meditations, read the books or forum topics from the beginning and get into the mood of what is being shared. If you find you do not like it, then feel free to move onto something else you like. I present what I present because I truly feel this will assist the most people. If I did not think this, why would I bother? I do not get anything "material" out of this, I do not have followers, and certainly some conversations here are not pleasant. If you do not want to accept me as I am and accept what I offer in the mood I am offering it, then move on! No one will blame you for it. Follow your heart. If I have done nothing else but reinforced your idea that you were getting the real deal within ISKCON and that you strongly wish to embrace that ideal, then I have helped you find yourself. More than this I cannot do anyway.

I see no reason to force feed everyone Krsna. I see no need to assume that people need to be molded according to a set standard. I wish to help them become all they can be and to live in the present while making the best choices they can. I wish to be of service, but I am not your servant. I serve that Supreme that you so revere with awe, but I do not call them the supreme. Indeed, quite the opposite. If you have a problem with that, so be it! Either get used to it or move on. Your choice.

I am still amazed that you do not feel the personal nature of energy and you insist on turning the most personal of all spiritual essence into something impersonal. I wish you well, truly I do, but your ideas are as far away from mine as they can be for a theist.

[harsi]

Now, although my wife, who studied at the University of Iasi, Romania, who is also a teacher by profession as you, told me after I read her what you wrote above, that could I not see that you feel bored by me already - she is back from hospital since 3 days - I would like to tell you the following, Hari. I personally, who am just a simple craftsman, realy appreciate what you have written, especially the mood, or the "energy" as you say, you transmit by writing what you have written I like, as well as the honesty by which you express yourself without hiding anything. And yes I would deffinitelly consider myself to be a theist, and that with all my heart. And how would you describe yourself, Hari? A shakta? ("Shakti is a Sanskrit term that refers to the fundamental and everlasting cosmic energy of all existence" >>) And what is in your opinion the difference, if any, between the two kind of spiritualists?

On the web site: www.wisegeek.com one can read in this regard: "Shakti is divine, or sacred feminine power. Within Shaktism, it is the true power behind the male god, an abstract and all-pervasive power."

[Hari]

Ah! Your wife is a wise person. Thank her for me.

[harsi]

Actualy everything would be already said with it, however my world is the world of reason and logic, which does not mean that I am like a stone when it comes to feeling and feeling the spiritual and divine atmosphere, the divine essence of something, the energy as you like to call it, when it comes to god or the deities ~ on the contrary I really do, like I felt it alsi when we met in the tempel in St. Petersburg, but by my curious nature I want more, want this good and this spiritual feelings, this emotions backed also up by my own reason and logic. Thank you Hari for all, hope I can manage ones to visit you in your home in Gainsville. Is your invitation and that of your good wife still valid?

[Akhila L]

Dear Harsi,
Please, excuse me for bringing this up to your attention. I feel that it should be said.
I would like to quote this one from a previous post:
"Consistently you challenge the basic points that I have presented. This is a problem because I do not wish to go back to square one in these forums because few are interested in such repetition. My advice for a beginner is to listen to the lectures, do the meditations, read the books or forum topics from the beginning and get into the mood of what is being shared. If you find you do not like it, then feel free to move onto something else you like. I present what I present because I truly feel this will assist the most people. If I did not think this, why would I bother? I do not get anything "material" out of this, I do not have followers, and certainly some conversations here are not pleasant. If you do not want to accept me as I am and accept what I offer in the mood I am offering it, then move on! No one will blame you for it. Follow your heart. If I have done nothing else but reinforced your idea that you were getting the real deal within ISKCON and that you strongly wish to embrace that ideal, then I have helped you find yourself. More than this I cannot do anyway."

If you analyse this fragment, you will find the answer to some apparent conflicts between your comments and Hari's replies. We used to visit this site to interact with Hari on the most important issues of human life, questions that we want to explore even more. If you take over the discussion and disseminate the material that you find attractive and interesting, it may work for a while but it can also make us quit the discussion. This is certainly not what Hari wants us to do! If you can limit your comments to the topic and be concise, EVERYBODY would appreciate it, I promise you.
Then, one more issue, probably the most sensitive one. The "old days" issue. We all know and feel that we ALL are PERSONS. God too. There is no reason to suspect that we have some other agenda. How we interact with God, how we call Him (Them), this is a very PERSONAL issue and cannot be fully described for the other one. Let it be so. No institution in the whole world has an exclusive right to represent the "real God" and "the ultimate truth". Not even ISKCON. Because everything changes. You, me, Hari, and God too. This is very beautifully depicted in "Living energy". Probably it should be entitled "The ever-changing living energy" ))
You are a very special person because you are pursuing subjects in your life that are of real importance. But please, keep in mind, that everyone here is a SPECIAL one.
I hope this finds you in the good (sorry for cliche) spiritual mood. Wishing you well.

[harsi]

You made my day, Akhila. All this discussions allowed me to learn a lot. Especially to not take oneself to seriously. )) To laugh at oneself means to take one-self seriously while simultaneously being able to open up your mind. If I think about my experience in Sweden in the year 1987 it awakenss nice memories and good feelings, just as everyone of us feels released when he - finally - experiences to be understood, accepted, able to communicate himself.

[kamalamala1]

Back to the isue
Without getting Gods mercy, directly or undirectly, one will not be able to aproach God (Radha and Krishna).

[harsi]

Sure, you will certainly be proven right, Kamalamala. However, if one perceives or lookes at God as Radha and Krishna through the prism of logic, one is tempted to ask wherefrom do this names Radha and Krishna originate, where do they came from, where or who revealed this names of God and how were they handed down to us.

But as far as I understand Hari and I really cannot say that I have seen this all through what he tries to make us understand, what he means and denotes as Radha Krishna are personifications of the spiritual archetypes of the feminine and masculin energy which are the very essence of everyone of us.

I remember when I was in the tempel in St. Petersburg he suggested, and led all of us present in front of the deities there, to rise our hands in front of Radha Krishna and thus try to feel that energy which would suposedly emanate from God and this personifications of that divine and allpervading energy. Unfortunally it didn´t work for me, what was somewhat disappoointing. I guess God in the form of Radha and Krishna didnt wanted to show me yet, directly or indirectly, their mercy.

[Hari]

You have it quite wrong. Although Radha and Krsna are the archetypes of the Feminine and Masculine energy, they are not personifications of these energies, they are its source and therefore all things are modeled in a similar manner. But this is obvious. The way you are wording it makes it confused and bewildering. No wonder you did not feel the deities. You are taking something sublime and wonderful and distorting it in a most disturbing manner.

I am locking this topic.